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Mahāvīra and Gautama (Indrabhūti) - The Nature of the Soul

Mahāvīra teaches Gautama (Indrabhūti)

Jain Āgamas and traditional accounts

Sacred Dialogue
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The Setting

Indrabhūti Gautama, a learned Brahmin scholar with 500 disciples, hears of Mahāvīra’s teachings and becomes irritated. “Who is this naked ascetic who rejects the Vedas and speaks of kevala-jñāna (omniscience)?” he thinks. He sets out to debate and defeat Mahāvīra, but arriving in the presence of the Jina, something shifts in him.

The Dialogue

The First Encounter

MAHĀVĪRA: Welcome, Indrabhūti Gautama. You have come with doubts in your heart. Seven questions trouble you. Let me answer them before you ask.

GAUTAMA (startled): How do you know my name? How do you know what is in my heart? I have not spoken!

MAHĀVĪRA: I see all things as they are. Past, present, and future are clear to one who has attained kevala-jñāna. Your questions are:

  1. Does the soul (jīva) exist?
  2. What is the nature of karma?
  3. How does karma bind the soul?
  4. What is mokṣa (liberation)?
  5. How is it attained?
  6. Why do beings suffer unequally?
  7. Is there a creator God?

Ask, and I shall answer.

GAUTAMA (humbled, bowing): Lord, your knowledge transcends mine. Please, teach me. My first doubt: Does the soul truly exist? The Buddhists say there is no self (anattā). The Vedāntins say the self is identical with Brahman. What is the truth?

The Reality of the Soul

MAHĀVĪRA: Gautama, both views are partial truths. The Buddha is correct that there is no permanent, unchanging ego-self. But he errs in denying the existence of the conscious witness altogether.

The Vedāntins are correct that consciousness exists and is eternal. But they err in saying that all souls are one, or that the soul is identical with some cosmic principle.

The truth is this: Each soul (jīva) is real, eternal, and individual. There are infinite souls, not one soul. Each soul possesses consciousness, bliss, infinite knowledge, and infinite power as its essential nature.

GAUTAMA: But Lord, if each soul possesses infinite knowledge, why do we not know all things? Why am I ignorant?

MAHĀVĪRA: Because your soul is covered by karma, like a mirror covered by dust. The mirror does not lose its reflective capacity—it is merely obscured. Clean the dust, and the reflection returns.

Similarly, the soul does not lose its infinite knowledge—it is obscured by karmic matter. Remove the karma, and omniscience manifests naturally.

GAUTAMA: Karma as matter? Lord, I have always understood karma as action, as the fruit of one’s deeds. How can it be material?

The Nature of Karma

MAHĀVĪRA: This, Gautama, is the unique insight of the Jina’s teaching. Listen carefully:

Karma is not merely action or its consequences. Karma is subtle material particles that adhere to the soul due to passionate activity.

Think of it this way: when you walk through a dusty room, dust particles stick to your body. Similarly, when the soul acts with passion (kaṣāya)—anger, pride, deceit, greed—subtle karmic particles are attracted to it and bind it.

There are eight types of karma:

1. Jñānāvaraṇīya Karma - Obscures knowledge
2. Darśanāvaraṇīya Karma - Obscures perception
3. Mohanīya Karma - Causes delusion (most binding)
4. Antarāya Karma - Obstructs energy
5. Vedanīya Karma - Produces pleasure and pain
6. Nāma Karma - Determines body type and characteristics
7. Gotra Karma - Determines social status
8. Āyuṣya Karma - Determines lifespan

GAUTAMA: How does this karmic matter actually bind the soul?

MAHĀVĪRA: When you act with passion, your soul vibrates (yoga). This vibration attracts karmic particles, which then stick to the soul based on the intensity and type of passion.

Imagine oil and water. Normally they don’t mix. But if you add soap (passion) and agitate (action), an emulsion forms. Similarly, karma (matter) and jīva (consciousness) don’t naturally mix. But passion acts as the bonding agent.

Once bound, these karmic particles determine your experiences, your body, your circumstances—until they ripen and fall away, replaced by new karmic influx.

GAUTAMA: This is unlike anything I have heard. How can matter affect consciousness?

MAHĀVĪRA: Yet you see it every day. When you drink wine, your consciousness is affected. When the body is injured, the soul experiences pain. Matter and consciousness do interact—this is the reality of embodied existence.

The goal is not to deny this interaction but to understand it and transcend it.

The Process of Bondage and Liberation

GAUTAMA: Lord, how does one transcend this bondage?

MAHĀVĪRA: Through the triple path (ratna-traya):

1. Samyak Darśana (Right Faith/Vision):

  • Conviction in the teachings of the Jina
  • Faith in the existence of the soul
  • Understanding of karma and its operation
  • Trust in the possibility of liberation

2. Samyak Jñāna (Right Knowledge):

  • Understanding the nine tattvas (realities):
    1. Jīva (soul/living beings)
    2. Ajīva (non-living substances)
    3. Āsrava (influx of karma)
    4. Bandha (bondage of karma)
    5. Saṃvara (stoppage of karma)
    6. Nirjarā (shedding of karma)
    7. Mokṣa (liberation)
    8. Punya (merit)
    9. Pāpa (demerit)

3. Samyak Cāritra (Right Conduct):

  • The five mahāvratas (great vows) for ascetics:
    1. Ahiṃsā (non-violence)
    2. Satya (truthfulness)
    3. Asteya (non-stealing)
    4. Brahmacharya (celibacy)
    5. Aparigraha (non-possession)

GAUTAMA: And by following this path, one achieves mokṣa?

MAHĀVĪRA: Yes, but understand the process:

Saṃvara (Stopping New Karma):

  • Through right conduct, you stop the influx of new karmic particles
  • Like plugging the holes in a leaking boat

Nirjarā (Shedding Old Karma):

  • Through tapas (austerities), you burn off accumulated karma
  • Like bailing water out of the boat

When all karma is exhausted—both the stopping of new karma and the elimination of old karma—the soul attains kevala (pure, isolated state):

  • Kevala-jñāna (omniscience)
  • Kevala-darśana (perfect perception)
  • Complete liberation from the cycle of birth and death

GAUTAMA: This tapas, Lord—why is austerity necessary? Cannot knowledge alone free us?

MAHĀVĪRA: Knowledge is essential, but it is not sufficient. The karmic particles must be physically removed, burned away.

Think of cooking: understanding recipes (knowledge) is important, but you must actually apply heat (tapas) to cook the food. Similarly, you must apply the fire of austerity to burn the karma.

This is why we practice extreme asceticism—fasting, meditation, standing for hours, plucking hair, enduring heat and cold—not as punishment, but as the means to shed karma rapidly.

The Doctrine of Anekāntavāda

GAUTAMA: Lord, you speak with such certainty. Yet the Buddhists deny the soul, the Vedāntins affirm it as one, and you say there are many souls. How can all be true?

MAHĀVĪRA: This brings us to another key teaching: anekāntavāda (the doctrine of many-sidedness).

Reality is complex, multifaceted. No single perspective captures the whole truth. Each view is true from its perspective (naya), but partial.

Consider: six blind men touch an elephant. One touches the trunk and says, “An elephant is like a snake.” Another touches the leg and says, “Like a tree trunk.” Another touches the side and says, “Like a wall.”

Each is correct from his perspective, but none has the complete picture. Only one who can see (like the Jina with omniscience) knows the elephant fully.

Similarly:

  • The Buddhist, focusing on the empirical personality, rightly sees no permanent ego
  • The Vedāntin, focusing on consciousness itself, rightly sees the eternal witness
  • The Jain, seeing both aspects, recognizes individual eternal souls

GAUTAMA: This is profound. So truth is relative?

MAHĀVĪRA: Not relative—multifaceted. There is absolute truth (from the omniscient perspective), but for those without omniscience, every statement must be qualified by “syāt” (perhaps, from this perspective).

This is syādvāda (the doctrine of conditional predication):

  • Perhaps it exists (from one perspective)
  • Perhaps it doesn’t exist (from another perspective)
  • Perhaps it both exists and doesn’t exist (simultaneously, from different angles)
  • Perhaps it is indescribable (beyond these categories)

This prevents dogmatism and promotes intellectual humility.

GAUTAMA: So even your teachings, Lord, are perspectival?

MAHĀVĪRA: My teachings describe reality as it is seen from omniscience. But your understanding of my teachings is perspectival. This is why direct realization is necessary—not just belief in my words.

The Practice of Ahiṃsā

GAUTAMA: Lord, you emphasize ahiṃsā above all. Why?

MAHĀVĪRA: Ahiṃsā (non-violence) is the supreme dharma because:

1. Metaphysical reason: Each soul is sacred, eternal, and possesses infinite potential. To harm any being is to harm a being like yourself—a soul striving toward liberation.

2. Karmic reason: Violence binds the heaviest karma. One act of killing binds millions of karmic particles. If you wish to attain liberation, you must stop creating this bondage.

3. Practical reason: Violence arises from passion—anger, greed, fear. By practicing complete non-violence, you uproot these passions, which are the real cause of karmic bondage.

GAUTAMA: But Lord, even eating vegetables involves killing plants. Even breathing kills microorganisms. How can we avoid all violence?

MAHĀVĪRA: You cannot avoid all violence completely while embodied. Even the Jina’s body causes inadvertent harm. This is why we distinguish:

Saṃkalpi hiṃsā (Intentional violence) - To be completely avoided
Ārambhī hiṃsā (Occupational violence) - Minimized as much as possible
Udīrṇa hiṃsā (Inadvertent violence) - Unavoidable but not karmically binding if done without passion

The key is intention and passion. A householder who must farm or cook does less karmic harm than one who kills with anger or pleasure.

But for maximum purification, the ascetic life is ideal—owning nothing, eating once a day only what is offered, walking carefully to avoid stepping on insects, straining water, sweeping the path.

GAUTAMA: This seems extreme to many, Lord.

MAHĀVĪRA: It is extreme, which is why I prescribe different paths for different capacities:

For ascetics (munis): The five mahāvratas in their complete form
For laypeople (śrāvakas): The five aṇuvratas (lesser vows) with allowances for household life
For all: Gradual progress according to capacity

But understand: liberation requires complete renunciation eventually. The householder path leads to better rebirths and gradual purification, but final liberation requires the ascetic path.

The Question of God

GAUTAMA: Lord, you have not mentioned God. The Vedas speak of Brahman, Ishvara, the creator. Do you deny God?

MAHĀVĪRA: I do not deny divinity—I deny an external creator God who controls the universe.

Consider: If God is perfect, why would he create an imperfect world? If he is compassionate, why is there suffering? If he is omnipotent, why doesn’t he simply make all beings enlightened?

The concept of a creator God leads to logical problems and, more importantly, to spiritual passivity: “God will save me; I need do nothing.”

The truth is simpler: The universe operates by natural law (dharma). Karma binds; right action liberates. There is no external judge, no cosmic administrator. Each soul is responsible for its own state.

GAUTAMA: Then who are the Jinas? Who are you?

MAHĀVĪRA: The Jinas (conquerors) are souls who have conquered all karma and attained omniscience. We are not gods who created the universe—we are teachers who show the way to liberation.

I am the 24th Tīrthaṅkara (ford-maker) of this era—one who has crossed the ocean of saṃsāra and built a ford (tirtha) for others to cross. But I do not save you—I show you how to save yourself.

When you attain kevala, you too will be a siddha (perfected soul)—omniscient, blissful, free. Not because I gave it to you, but because you uncovered your own inherent nature.

The Path to Kevala

GAUTAMA: Lord, I am convinced. I wish to follow this path. What must I do?

MAHĀVĪRA: You must take the great vows and become a śramaṇa (ascetic). Are you ready to renounce all—your wealth, your students, your reputation, your clothes, all possessions?

GAUTAMA: I am ready, Lord. Better to be naked and free than clothed and bound.

MAHĀVĪRA: Then understand what you undertake:

The Life of the Ascetic:

Ahiṃsā (Non-violence):

  • Not just avoiding killing, but avoiding harm in thought, word, deed
  • Walking carefully, speaking carefully, thinking carefully
  • Seeing all souls as equal—from insects to humans

Satya (Truth):

  • Speaking only truth, and truth that is beneficial
  • If truth causes harm, remain silent
  • Lying binds terrible karma

Asteya (Non-stealing):

  • Taking nothing that is not freely given
  • Even accepting more food than needed is a form of theft
  • Complete contentment with what comes

Brahmacharya (Celibacy):

  • No sexual activity in thought, word, or deed
  • Conserving vital energy for spiritual practice
  • Seeing all beings as souls, not as objects of desire

Aparigraha (Non-possession):

  • Owning nothing—not even clothes (for Digambara monks)
  • No attachment to place, person, or thing
  • Complete freedom from the burden of ownership

GAUTAMA: This is a radical path, Lord.

MAHĀVĪRA: It is the direct path. For those who can walk it, liberation can come in this very lifetime. For others, it may take many lifetimes. But every step brings you closer.

The soul must eventually stand alone, pure, isolated (kevala)—not dependent on body, family, possessions, or even clothing. This aloneness is not loneliness but absolute freedom.

The Final Realization

GAUTAMA: Lord, I have practiced for many years now under your guidance. Yet I feel I have not attained kevala. What is lacking?

MAHĀVĪRA: Gautama, you have destroyed almost all karma. Only one bond remains—your attachment to me.

GAUTAMA (shocked): Attachment to you, Lord? But you are the Jina! How can devotion to you be a bondage?

MAHĀVĪRA: Even devotion, if it creates dependency, is a bondage. You are too attached to me as your teacher. You must realize the truth not through me but as yourself.

Soon I will attain mokṣa (final liberation), leaving the body behind. When I am gone, that attachment will break, and you will attain kevala.

GAUTAMA: Must you leave, Lord?

MAHĀVĪRA: All karma in this body has been exhausted. It is time. But do not grieve. The soul does not die—it merely sheds the body like a worn garment.

And you, Gautama, will continue the teaching. You will be the gaṇadhara (chief disciple), the teacher of thousands. The Jina’s work will continue through you.

GAUTAMA: I do not want to lose you, Lord.

MAHĀVĪRA: You cannot lose what you truly are. When you attain kevala, you will know: we are not separate. Each soul is infinite, each is sovereign, each is free.

Our connection is not of teacher and student, but of one infinite consciousness recognizing itself in another.

Walk the path, Gautama. Realize your own infinite nature. This is my final teaching to you.

(After Mahāvīra’s mokṣa, Gautama attained kevala-jñāna, becoming Gautama Gaṇadhara, the chief architect of the Jain scriptures.)

The Teaching

Core Jain Principles

The Nine Tattvas (Fundamental Realities):

  1. Jīva - Living souls (infinite in number, each eternal)
  2. Ajīva - Non-living substances (matter, space, time, motion, rest)
  3. Āsrava - Influx of karma through passionate action
  4. Bandha - Bondage of karma to the soul
  5. Saṃvara - Stoppage of karmic influx
  6. Nirjarā - Shedding of accumulated karma
  7. Mokṣa - Complete liberation (kevala)
  8. Punya - Merit (good karma)
  9. Pāpa - Demerit (bad karma)

The Triple Path (Ratna-Traya):

  1. Right Faith - Conviction in Jain teachings
  2. Right Knowledge - Understanding of reality
  3. Right Conduct - Ethical living and austerity

The Five Great Vows (Mahāvratas) - For Ascetics:

  1. Ahiṃsā - Complete non-violence
  2. Satya - Absolute truthfulness
  3. Asteya - No taking what is not given
  4. Brahmacharya - Complete celibacy
  5. Aparigraha - Total non-possession

Anekāntavāda (Many-Sided Reality):

  • Truth is complex and multifaceted
  • Every statement is conditional (syādvāda)
  • Intellectual humility and tolerance

Jain Cosmology

The Soul’s Journey:

  • Infinite souls in infinite states
  • Each soul has infinite knowledge, perception, bliss, energy (when unobscured)
  • Liberation is uncovering one’s true nature, not acquiring something new

Karma as Subtle Matter:

  • Eight types of karma binding the soul
  • Karma attracted through passionate activity
  • Liberation through stoppage and shedding of karma

No Creator God:

  • Universe operates by natural law
  • Each soul responsible for its own liberation
  • Jinas are teachers, not saviors

Practical Application

For the Layperson (Śrāvaka)

The Five Anuvratas (Lesser Vows):

  1. Ahiṃsā - Avoid intentional harm; minimize occupational violence
  2. Satya - Speak truth; avoid harmful speech
  3. Asteya - Honest livelihood; respect others’ property
  4. Brahmacharya - Sexual restraint; fidelity in marriage
  5. Aparigraha - Limit possessions; practice generosity

Daily Practice:

  • Sāmāyika - 48 minutes of meditation/equanimity practice
  • Pratikramaṇa - Daily confession and repentance
  • Vegetarian diet - Avoiding root vegetables, eating before sunset
  • Fasting - Regular fasts (especially during Paryushan)

For the Ascetic (Muni)

Radical Renunciation:

  • No possessions (including clothes for Digambaras)
  • Wandering except during monsoon
  • Eating only what is offered
  • Extreme care in all movements

Intensive Practices:

  • Kāyotsarga - Meditation in standing/sitting posture for hours
  • Sallekhanā - Voluntary fast unto death (when death is near and mind is clear)
  • Study - Memorization of scriptures
  • Teaching - Sharing the Jina’s dharma

Meditation Practices

Contemplation of the Nine Tattvas:

  • Meditate on each reality
  • Understand the mechanics of bondage
  • Contemplate the path to liberation

Contemplation of the Five Paragons:

  • Arihants (those who have attained kevala)
  • Siddhas (liberated souls)
  • Ācāryas (heads of ascetic orders)
  • Upādhyāyas (teachers)
  • Sādhus (all ascetics)

Questions and Answers

Q: If souls are infinite and eternal, where do new souls come from?
A: Souls don’t “come from” anywhere—they have always existed. The universe has no beginning. Souls cycle through states of bondage and liberation eternally.

Q: Is Jain practice too extreme for modern life?
A: The complete path is extreme, but householder vows (anuvratas) are adaptable. Even partial practice reduces karma and improves future births. Complete liberation may take many lifetimes.

Q: How is Jainism different from Buddhism?
A: Both deny a creator God and emphasize ethics. But Jainism affirms eternal individual souls, while Buddhism denies permanent self. Jainism sees karma as material, Buddhism as mental. Jainism prescribes extreme austerity, Buddhism the middle way.

Q: Why nudity for Digambara monks?
A: Clothes are possession. Complete aparigraha means owning nothing, not even cloth. Also, it demonstrates complete victory over shame and attachment to the body. (Note: Śvetāmbara monks wear white robes—both are valid Jain traditions.)

Q: Can women attain liberation?
A: Digambaras traditionally say women must be reborn as men first. Śvetāmbaras affirm women can attain kevala (indeed, the 19th Tīrthaṅkara, Mallinātha, is considered female by Śvetāmbaras). Modern Jains increasingly embrace gender equality.

The Significance

Historical Importance

  • One of the three major śramaṇa traditions (with Buddhism and Ājīvika)
  • Survived while Buddhism declined in India
  • Influenced Indian culture: vegetarianism, animal welfare, non-violence
  • Preserved ancient teachings through oral and written tradition
  • Living tradition with millions of followers today

Philosophical Contributions

Unique metaphysics:

  • Karma as subtle material substance
  • Each soul individual and eternal
  • Reality as multifaceted (anekāntavāda)
  • Omniscience (kevala-jñāna) as the goal

Ethical rigor:

  • Most extensive non-violence teachings
  • Detailed analysis of types of harm
  • Integration of ethics and metaphysics

Epistemology:

  • Doctrine of conditional predication (syādvāda)
  • Multiple viewpoints (naya)
  • Humility in knowledge claims

Contemplation

*Indrabhūti came to debate,
Proud of his learning,
Sure of his views.

But meeting the Jina—
The one who had conquered all karma,
The one who saw all things as they are—
Pride dissolved.

“Who am I to argue with omniscience?
Who am I to defend limited views?”

He saw: every soul is infinite,
Yet bound by karma accumulated through countless lifetimes.

He saw: liberation is not given by God or guru,
But uncovered through one’s own effort—
Right faith, right knowledge, right conduct.

He saw: violence in every careless word,
Harm in every thoughtless deed,
Bondage in every possession held.

And so he let go—
All learning, all pride,
All possessions, all clothes,
Standing naked before truth.

This is the Jain path:
Not comfortable, not easy,
But direct, clear, uncompromising.

Each soul sovereign,
Each soul infinite,
Each soul capable of kevala—
If it has the courage to let go completely.*


May you, like Gautama, have the courage to let go of all that binds you and realize your own infinite nature. 🙏✨

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